The unknown tongue in I Corinthians 14:2 would sound like mumbo-jumbo to you
Question:
[Note: I left the following unedited since the author claimed to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He had asked that this not be published, but since there is nothing in the note that is personal to him, I decided it serves as a good example of what those in the Charismatic movements believe.]
Nicely and logical analysis of the meanings of I Cor. [Refering to Spiritual Gifts: Prophecy Is Better Than Tongues]
It gives me the impresion that there is genuine interest from the writer about the people coming at the synaxis (church).
Everything is mostly accurate, except the (implying) answers to these questions:
Class Discussions:
1. Charismatics use I Corinthians 14:2 to explain that when others don't understand them, their intention is to speak to God and not to man. Is this what Paul says is the purpose of speaking in tongues?
In 14:2 (For he who cspeaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.)
It actually says that for he who speaks in "unknown tongue", (1-1 translation of the ancient greek ???ss? a?????st?? ) does not speak to men (humans) but to God, for no one understands him (him in italics, means that it doesnt exist in the original but we have for clarification reasons) ; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
The "purpose" of speaking in tongues is in 14:4 (He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,) and also it serves as a sign to the non believers ( although you are making the assumption that he was preaching in that language which is completely non existing in bible as Paul and Peter both where speaking (a few times in hebrew dialect) and all the other times he was preaching (ancient) greek . If there is som1 who has the gift to interpret then Paul says at 14:27 2 or 3 to speak in tongues and 1 (who has the gift to interpret) to interpret , else if no one has it then the rest who (only speak in tongues and cant interpret) shouldnt speak in tongues loud (to the rest - Church - and they should speak to god. Another point that if som1 who is speaking in "tongues" knew what he was saying he could translate it everytime.
2. When a modern-day tongue speaker is asked what he said, the common answer is that he doesn't personally know, it has to be interpreted by someone else. Does this match what Paul stated?
Hmm, actually when som1 is speaking in (unknown) tongue it is actually the (holy) spirit speaking and not the spirit (brain)of the human and it is (generally) unknown to the speaker 1 Cor 14: 14 (For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.) . Meaning that it might speak in russian or another language (tongue) while i dont speak russian so i literally speaking without understanding what i say. If there is som1 native (to the unkown to the speaker tongue) he should be able to understand everything - mostly praying Jesus and God ( we can verify this from the bible -Pentecostal day, Act with cornelius etc.) The speaker cant translate ( although he might understand 1- 2 words in the tongue he speaks, it is not all mumble jumbling). It could be interpreted by himself (the speaker) if he has the gift (so the results are the same as a prophet.) or som1 else who has the interpretation gift (= nor the other one is native speaker nor he understands the language but the holy spirit is moving his mouth to make the interpretation (thats why it is not translation)
3. Why did Paul state he wished everyone had the gift of tongues and prophecy when in I Corinthians 12:29-30 he stated that everyone doesn't have these gifts?
Everyone who is "baptised" received the holy spirit should be able to speak in "at least one" (mumble jumble to you ) uknown tongue
On the other hand the gift of the holy spirit is not the same as receiving it as the latest is for everyone but the gifts are distributed as the spirit wants.
Oh and there is the "gift" of speaking in tongues meaning that he can speak multiple tongues (mumble jumble that change and can understand words from different languages)
Anyway, you might have heard some or all of the above again, so i might familiar with the following info:
- i have "seen"(heard actually) the gifts of prophecy and interpretation (som1 is speaking in tongues and som1 else is "translating" "interpret").
-Have not meet anyone with the gift of giving (passing ) the holy spirit or cure / heal anyone. Of course i have
heard about healings but havent seen it applying to any worth reporting injury or disease.
-Most Charismatics churches have indeed become 1 Cor 14: 20 (child behaviour).
Seems like that either they dont understand its normal use and use it as a toy or consider that they have the "real truth" and every other church is inferior....
-I have experienced the "speaking in tongues" myself in (some) different languages plus the prophecy part (in native language).
After the first experience , it is exactly like switching languages, meaning you can mumble jumble (tongue) or not at will. Doesnt have to be in a "church" enviroment.
-The condition that says in the bible that you are Full of H.Spirit though, is always an intense condition (experiencing positive feelings very intensly) and you speak
unknown language with perfect pronouncation (while it still is unknown to you), at least it sounds perfect arabic or russian
or french, chinese etc. (I havent verify it with a native speaker because the "languages" are changing almost every time you pray.)
-Most interesting part is that although paul says to get full of H.Spirit everyday this is not something
which you can control ( to get full) . You can pray all you want but doenst mean you will actually experience the above.
-Oh and the tongue of your mouth is non control able while you are full of H.Sp or prophecy -( to make a prophecy
you must be "full of H.Sp"),
-you dont actually lose control because you can stop it all together if you want but if you do
continue and speak in the holy spirit you dont have control about the message you say (can interfere sometimes).
-You can have eyes closed or open and sit or be at your knees or stand up. (no trance condition)
-In the mumble jumble part you can hear youself calling for Jesus clearly
Answer:
I'm sorry, but in regards to question 1, I have the Greek text and the phrase you used is not in the text. I Corinthians 14:2 starts out: ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ ... (ho gar lalon glosse, ouk anthropois lalei ...) (Literal: The for speaking in a tongue, not to men speak ...). You took the phrase "unknown tongue" and translated it to Greek, though you ended up with a form of "unknown" that is not found in the Bible manuscripts. The word "unknown," in any form, doesn't appear in I Corinthians 13 or 14. Since you make the point that him is in italics, which indicates it is not in the text, then you should have noticed the same for the word unknown in the King James Version.
I Corinthians 14:2-4 tells us what the result is of a person who speaks in a tongue that no one present understands: he ends up only speaking to God and to himself. But the purpose of speaking in a tongue is for communication with another person as the verses following explain at length.
Paul goes on to say that speaking in a tongue serves no benefit unless there is some content to what is being said. "But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?" (I Corinthians 14:6).
You make the mistake of stating that Paul only spoke Greek and Hebrew because these languages were specifically mentioned in the Bible. However, there is nowhere a statement that these were the only languages in which he spoke or preached. As Paul stated, "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue" (I Corinthians 14:18-19). Peter and the other apostles were able to speak in whatever language their audience needed to understand their message. "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs -- we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2:8-11). Paul had the same ability. Notice that the audience knew exactly what was being said. This wasn't a mumble of rapidly changing languages.
In Question 2 you claim to not know what you say; yet, Paul said "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (I Corinthians 14:4). You cannot build yourself up if you have no understanding of your own words.
You offered the evidence of your experience, though it is just the testimony of one person. You admit that you never communicated with another person in their own native language that wasn't a language that you had learned. "So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me" (I Corinthian 14:9-11). Your idea of tongue-speaking then proves to have no value. This is not a sign to the unbeliever as Paul had in mind; instead, you prove Paul's point: "Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?" (I Corinthians 14:23).
